Start Gate When Pilots Leave or Enters

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This topic contains 14 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Oyvind Ellefsen 8 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #13

    dlhenke
    Participant

    <p>How to setup tasks when the start gate is in "leave" or Last Enter ?</p>
    <p>Ex:</p>
    <p>Take Off is WPT0<br />
    Enter Start Gate is in WPT 1 with a radius of 400Meters</p>
    <p>Or<br />
    =====================================================================<br />
    Take Off is WPT0<br />
    Enter Start Gate is in WPT 1 with a radius of 10ks<br />
    Starting the SS after the Last time when pilots Enter the Start Gate<br />
    Or<br />
    starting the SS after the first time when pilots Enter the Start Gate<br />
    =====================================================================<br />
    Or<br />
    Take off is in WPT0<br />
    Leave start Gate is in WPT 1 with a Radius of 5k<br />
    =====================================================================<br />
    How About Dead Line, or interruption for security reasons when whe already have pilots in the goal?</p>
    <p>Recently i have made the Flymaster Valadares Paragliding Open 2008, and decided to use the Old CompeGPS and using the FSCOMPE to compare results.</p>
    <p>One task of fscompe the pilot gets 997 Points<br />
    and with Race+CompeGPS 1000 Points.
    </p>

    #185

    ste
    Member

    The term “Startgate” is in FS used for the start-time(s) which a pilot can be given in a RACE task.

    “Start of speedsection” (SS) turnpoint is the turnpoint where the time starts and where one may have a number of startgates. (no startgates means it is an elapsed time race).

    For a SS turnpoint it is the time of the last crossing of the cylinder that is registered. (which leads a completed task or longest distance).

    The direction is irrelevant.

    If the next turnpoint is outside the SS turnpoint cylinder, then the last crossing will normally be going out (exit) of the SS cylinder.

    If the next turnpoint is inside the SS turnpoint (having SS as big cylinder…), then the last crossing will normally be going into (enter) the SS cylinder.

    Stein-Tore

    #186

    ste
    Member

    How About Dead Line, or interruption for security reasons when whe already have pilots in the goal?

    FS will check tracklog points upto the close time of the last turnpoint defined in the task. It is not concerned with pilots in goal or not, in this respect.

    If one has stopped the task early for some reason, just change the task definition so that the close time of the last turnpoint (and the others) is no later than the time the task was stopped.

    Stein-Tore

    #187

    ste
    Member

    One task of fscompe the pilot gets 997 Points
    and with Race+CompeGPS 1000 Points.

    The difference may be in the leading coefficient, CompeGPS and FS does not have exact same way of calculating it.

    Stein-Tore

    #188

    dlhenke
    Participant

    OK Stein, Usualy at elapsed time speedrun, whe dont have a SS, but At Valadares Open, one task we have a SS and ES with Elapsed Time Race
    And whithout having Options clearly we must teach the Task Comition, to do the task as it is in the FSCOMPE, and not allways they hear us, i think it will be a very very Hard Job to do this.

    My sugestion, even FSCOMPE have its own features, to mantain as much is possible the way to make tasks as it is in the COMPEGPS.

    You must know that the pilots takes a small hair to make a big Noise.. a big thunderstorm inside a glass of water.

    THat is my personal vision.
    Sorry if i’m making some mistakes, but my english is not good.

    Thanks A lot
    Durval Henke

    #189

    Oyvind Ellefsen
    Participant

    Stein Tore,

    Example; We have a task with a SS of 30km radius, the next turnpoint is outside the SS radius, directly downwind so that pilots will cross through the SS turnpoint. In this case I do believe the direction is relevant as pilots will naturally wait upwind of the SS cylinder because there is not enough time to cross the SS cyl and take the start downwind. But if they go through the SS cylinder quicker than expected they might unexpectedly get the time crossing out of the SS cylinder. (Depending on number of start gates and times)

    The new Brauniger/Flytec instruments define Enter/Exit start, and the pilots and task committees are used to this concept. I think this should be defined, even though I agree with your thoughts about not needing this. Pilots habits are hard to turn, and the startgate/cylinder concept is quite abstract and hard to understand for pilots the way it it. Removing the enter/exit feature will make life harder for task comittees too…

    – Øyvind

    #190

    danielvelez
    Participant

    Oyvellef and Stein Tore, and why not, everybody else:
    Using the term “Exit” or “Enter” for the SS cylinder it´s irrelevant, as the programmers noticed when designing the software. Probably it´s still a good idea to tell the people de direction of the crossing on the pilot meeting, but as the software points out it does not make any sense to force an Entry Start Gate when the next turnpoint is outside the cylinder, and keeping the old “habit” of stating the direction for the crossing is one of the things that we must improove with newer software, and also into competitions, so the task comitee wont be needing to mess around with entry or exit, or misspelling that somehow, but only planning the route, as the crossing direction will be the “logic” one.

    So even when pilots makes big noise when you change something, and old habits are hard to workaround, there´s nothing that justifies keeping an old bad habbit at all. If we managed to move from photo-tasks to gps tasks, and then to leading coeff, then making the SS cylinder simpler wont hurt at all.

    I´ve myself have a Compeo + (equivalent to the flytec 6030) and it has this “entry”, “exit” setting that´s quite annoying and I´m sure that it´s there because of the tendency to “state” what kind of start is it. Probably the computer won´t work right if you set this parameter on the wrong direction, but still, we should start getting off those silly and complicated extra parameters on task settings and flight computer programmings.

    My suggestion, keep the software simple, even when it means changing the politics of the old software like CompeGPS.

    Let´s remember that what we are trying to do with the Start Cylinder is to be sure that nobody was ahead the starting place before the right time, so the direction for the crossing won´t even add distance or devaluate the time so it shouldn´t be an issue at all.

    If we users of the brauniger or flytec computers need to mess around with our vario to set the task and to put an “entry” or “exit” parameter, then it should be our own problem and not the task comitte, so we must deal with this until a new firmware get´s this concept out of the way.

    #192

    af
    Participant

    Hi all

    I have read the previous posts, but the concept is not yet clear to me.

    It is clear, that if the next turnpoint is inside the SS cilinder, than the start behaves like a Enter start!

    But if the next turnpoint is outside the SS cylinder and the cross direction is irrelevant, imagine the following situation:
    – Pilot 1 is outside the SS cylinder, and cross it to get in at start time.
    – Pilot 2 had already entered the SS cylinder, had crossed the cylinder to the next boundary and cross it out in direction to next point at start time!
    So both pilots get the start done at same time, but the pilot 2 that is inside the SS start takes clear advantage against Pilot 1, thus leading that in that situation all the pilots want to wait for start time inside the start cylinder.
    Is that correct?

    I remember that this situation increases the risk for all. The risk minimization is also a factor when choosing the start configuration.

    Antonio Fernandes

    #194

    danielvelez
    Participant

    Antonio, I believe for your name that you are hispanoparlante, but in order to keep the discussion open for everybody I´m gonna try to keep it in english.
    On your scenery, Pilot 1 actually is going to have a seccond start time, as he is inside the start cylinder and needs to get out in order to follow the route to the next waypoint, so even when he has one start time for crossing in, his time will reset as he leaves the cylinder, so pilots would eventually only need to worry about the time they last crossed the line.
    Pure an simple, if the next turnpoint is outside, the last crossing would always be out, unless you crossed in and landed within the turnpoint, but on that particular case, the time isn´t really an issue as you did not make goal.
    It would be really nice if you could attach pictures and drawings to this forum but I don´t seem to find an option.

    About the optimum starting spot, there´s always one spot that would be the nicest one, and all pilots would tend to fly that way. In order to miminize this risk the task committe should make a bigger radio start in order to have more “acceptable” spots and also to make it long for the pilot to get to those places so they will eventually get separated into smaller groups minimizing risks. An entry or an exit start type won´t add or substract to the risk equation. Obviously, if the next turnpoint is outside and downwind, you would try to take the start while waiting inside and on the downwind side of the start. If the next turnpoint is outside but upwind, then you would probably fly just a little outside, upwind on the start cylinder as you will eventually drift back inside while waiting for the start, and then you will try to cross out just as the start gate opens. If the next turnpoint is inside the start cylinder, then you will try to fly to the upwind face of the cylinder and wait outside watching not to drift inside before the start gate opens, so as soon as it opens, you will cross the line flying downwind to the next turnpoint.
    Everybody will try to stick to this logic, thus the ideal starting place would be crowded all the time.

    #195

    Oyvind Ellefsen
    Participant

    You can attach images by using a img tag in the post that point to wherever the image is on the net. Sorry but there is no upload image function directly in the forum. You can include a image like this

    
    img src="http://address.to.server/imagename.jpg"
    And put html tags around <>
    
    
    You can also upload an image on the Wiki, and link to it there from the forum.
    #196

    Oyvind Ellefsen
    Participant

    There are a few ways to avoid the huge gaggles at the start gate, FS can only help with the last one.

    * Not having Race tasks, but more start times will spread out pilots
    * Using a radius, small or large, that will give pilots more than one good start position
    * By allowing pilots to go early, this is effectively what a low Jump the gun factor does.

    The task setters should be aware of the dangers of crowding at the start gate, and set the task accordingly.

    Now where we run into a problem regarding the way FS does the start gate will be when the task setters does not understand how the system works and what are the pros and cons. This must be described clearly, and made in such a way that it is easy to educate the task setters.

    I propose we write a separate document describing what happens with the start cylinder, and make this a PDF that can be printed and given to the task committee at every meet where we use FS.

    I will start on this document, and please send me any test cases you want to be included. I will use a new Wiki page, so you can help out if you are able to.

    http://fs.fai.org/cgi-bin/trac.fcgi/wiki/TaskSetting

    #200

    Eduardo
    Participant

    I think I understand the logic behind saying that the direction of crossing the SS is irrevelant …. but I think that if it is irrevelant in terms of geometry, it can clearly change what a pilot commitee had in mind, and/or pilot strategies, and times.

    A pilot commitee might want the gaggles to wait outside a SS even when the next TP is outside the SS

    In fact, making the direction irrelevant makes all SS with outer TP as exit SS

    Am I making sense ?

    #203

    danielvelez
    Participant

    Hello Eduardo.

    You have a point there. If we keep the software logic on the entry-exit, then the pilot commitee won´t actually have a role on deciding if they want to make everybody wait outside an exit start. Nevertheless, keeping up with the logic, I can´t think on a safety issue that makes more convinient to have a full gagle making a 180 agressive turn just at the start of the race. This is quite more dangerous, as everybody would be forced to cross the start line twice, and if perhaps somebody drifted inside the start, then he would be crossing the line three times!.
    Probably what the logic dictates means that the commitee shouldn´t be able to make ilogic decisions.

    I´m gonna play with my Compeo+ today, using the simulator, to try to force an entry start to an outside following turnpoint, but taking off from the inside. (The computer should make me cross the start cylinder 3 times). I´ll post the results.

    There first safety issue for the task settlers would be, as you stated, to avoid crowded gaggles. And the seccond, not written safety rule would be, if crowded, avoid flying direction changes.

    Many times I have been waiting outside an exit start, not because of the task settlers, but because of the thermal distributions and wind tendencies, and it´s quite scary to go back inside the cylinder to take exit the start time, when a huge gaggle is heading right towards you. Now imagine that the task committe force this situation by trying to make an entry start gate when the next move would be fly outside to the following turnpoint. That would probably lead, in the best scenario, to a lot of complains on the pilot meeting, and a lot of crazy “close encounter” stories the next morning.

    #267

    I’m about to score the Tater Hill comp with FS and because of it’s small size (compared to GV, or the Owens) we often have zig-zagging tasks that pass through old cylinders. What happens when, during the course of the task, a pilot passes through the start cylinder again. Does their time and distance reset or does the start cylinder (or even SS cylinder) get ignored after they’ve passed through the next turnpoint?

    #268

    Oyvind Ellefsen
    Participant

    FS should handle that fine as far as I know. As long as the pilot have passed through the next TP after the SS cylinder FS will not record a new start time.

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