Ticket #248 (assigned defect)

Opened 4 years ago

Last modified 4 years ago

Elapsed time tasks, SS close time is linked to previous TP close time. Needs to be independent

Reported by: oyvellef Owned by: joerg
Priority: major Milestone:
Component: FsComp Version: 1.2.14
Keywords: elapsed time Cc: ste, audune, grogez@…

Description (last modified by oyvellef) (diff)

When setting up an Elapsed time task it must be possible to set the SS close time independently of the prevous TP close time. This task type combines the elements of last startgate in race and elapsed time.

Example elapsed time task;

  • Takeoff open at 12:00 close at 17:00
  • SS open at 13:00 close at 14:00
  • ES open at 13:00 close at 20:00

This should give the late starters 14:00 as their start-time, even if they take off at 16:59 and don't exit the start circle until 19:59

This task is not possible to set up in FS 1.3.1 as it will re-adjust the closing time of SS to 17:00 in the example above. This used to be possible in earlier versions of FS (Unless I had to do it manually...) Does not work in FS 1.1 either, nor with GAP 2002.

This type of task is often a solution for unpredictable days, where it might be racing conditions, but it might as well rain during the 13-14 period. It will give the late startes few or none timepoints, but distance points are still available so the task can be valid and score well for those that have patience or skills to stay in the air.

This type of task is quite common, and must be supported.


classic (1).zip (411.0 KB) - added by oyvellef 4 years ago.
Two elapsed time tasks with problems.

Change History

Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

Two elapsed time tasks with problems.

comment:1 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

Related to above, we are having lots of problems scoring the Canungra comp in Australia now as the tasks are all elapsed time.

Same type of task;

  • Takeoff open 12:00
  • SS open 12:30 close 13:00
  • .. Some more TP's and Goal.

No pilots reach goal, pilots who exit after SS close get scored minimum distance.

The manual solution seems to be setting a late SS close time, and then manually set back the start time for the late starters in the fsdb file. Not ideal...

Attached fsdb with the problems.

comment:2 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

  • Description modified (diff)

comment:3 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

  • Description modified (diff)

comment:4 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

  • Cc audune added

comment:5 Changed 4 years ago by joerg

I'll take a look at this tonight (CEST)

comment:6 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

I guess one solution could be to add an FS option to add one startgate to the Elapsed time task type, so we get something like this;

  • Takeoff open 12:00, Close 15:00
  • SS Open 13:00, Startgate 14:00, Close 20:00
  • TP Open 13:00, Close 20:00
  • Goal Open 13:00, close 20:00

FS should then check the tracklogs and set individual time based on the last tracklog point inside the SS cyl between 13:00 and 13:59:50, and if any pilot has a tracklog point in the SS after 14:00 they would get the start-time 13:59:59

This might be easier to immplement than changing the logic around the closing of TP's in order in the existing code?

comment:7 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

  • Description modified (diff)

comment:8 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

  • Cc grogez@… added

comment:9 Changed 4 years ago by joerg


My understanding is that this is not a new problem, introduced with 1.3.1, but something that has probably been around for a long time, correct?

I agree that this should be supported. But seeing that this has been around for a while, I hope it's OK if I don't strive to fix it overnight.

My vision is to get to the point where the a task representation in FS looks identical to what is given on the task board, and therefore have much fewer times:

  • Takeoff Window Open
  • Takeoff Window Close
  • SS Open (= first start gate)
  • Additional Start Gates (optional, n times)
  • Task Deadline

But no open nor close times for all the other turn points - they don't make sense in my eyes - or am I just to narrow-minded and there are competitions where individual turn points have opening and closing times?

Unfortunately, this will mean we'll have to change quite a bit both in the task definition and in the task evaluation code.

In the meantime, how about changing the semantics of the "SS Close" time? It's not much use as it is right now. Race to goal, 1 start time: SS Close is irrelevant, all pilots get the SS Open time as their start time. If somebody starts after SS Close, they still get SS Open as their start time. Race to goal, multiple start gates: Again, SS Close is irrelevant, pilots get the last gate time after they started. Elapsed time: Pilots starting before SS Close get their actual start time, pilots starting after SS Close get SS Close as their start time.

I can't remember seeing race tasks with an SS Close time. Have you seen such a thing? If not, this change should be relatively easy.

comment:10 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

I heard they fixed it in Canungra by adding 30 startgates with 1 minute interval :-) So yeah, it's better to make a well-thought out change and get it in the next version. I'm quite sure I've scored this scenario in the past, but that may have been as far back as with RACE and CompeGPS.

About the open/close time of the turnpoints, I am not sure what was the original idea behind this. I've never seen it in use. Maybe when we implement AAT tasks they might have some purpose?

Mimicking the taskboard in FS sounds like a good idea to me, I think it would improve usability if we manage to implement it in a good way.

Theoretically you could argue for a close time for the SS, even with race tasks, to force pilots enroute for safety (Overcrowding, predicted overdevelopment in the start area) In this case pilots should get min distance unless they start before the SS close. But this is a cornercase, and should be solved with other means than in the task setting and scoring.

comment:11 Changed 4 years ago by joerg

I thought some more about this, and I think even in Elapsed Time, SS Close time does not make that much sense. I also can't remember having seen a comp where this was being used. If deteriorating conditions were an issue, the task setters would nudge pilots towards an early start by setting an ambitious task deadline. And rely on the Leading Points adding an additional incentive for an early start.

The comp in Canungra does it differently, obviously. The question to me is, should we actually support it?

I'll go through some task board images to see how often SS Close times are being given.

comment:12 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

  • Cc ste added

I agree that SS close is marginally useful as it is implemented now, and probably not needed in todays tasks.

Maybe Stein Tore have some input to why TP open and close times were added when he made the first version of FS?

What we do need is the option to add a startgate to Elapsed time, instead of SS close. This would have solved the problems we have in scoring Canungra right now.

comment:13 follow-up: ↓ 14 Changed 4 years ago by Gordon

It is not just the Canungra comp, as apparently - according to Attila - this was what was used at the Pre-Worlds in Forbes and even more disturbingly is what will probably be used at the Worlds.

If the suggestion is to not support this type of task then the possibility of setting this task format in FS should be addressed now by removing the option to set a SS close time.

However, the introduction of a startgate to elapsed time tasks would solve the secondary problem of a pilot receiving a start time from a trackpoint closest to the edge of the SS cylinder after reentering the SS just before the SS close time instead of receiving the SS close time or even the time from the last trackpoint before SS close.

Last edited 4 years ago by Gordon (previous) (diff)

comment:14 in reply to: ↑ 13 Changed 4 years ago by oyvellef

Replying to Gordon:

It is not just the Canungra comp, as apparently - according to Attila - this was what was used at the Pre-Worlds in Forbes and even more disturbingly is what will probably be used at the Worlds.

Looking at the results from last year it's seems like the scorer has solved it by setting SS close to a late time, and then manually adjusting SS start times back to the deadline (And not bothering to make a request to have it fixed in FS).

It looks like the scorer did make a few mistakes though, where adjusted pilots lost their leading points, day 3 and 7. (Could also be that they started way later and did not have any leading points, but it seems unlikely) Luckily it would not have influenced the winners.

comment:15 Changed 4 years ago by joerg

OK, I investigated a bit, looking at pictures of task boards. Also talked with Martin Scheel about it. Seems that while it's still popular with Hang Gliding. this kind of tasks used to be commonly used in Paragliding some time ago, but fell out of fashion over time. I think it will be save to introduce the semantics mentioned above:

SS Close in Elapsed Time races acts like the last gate in multiple start gate Race to Goal tasks. If you start after SS Close, you get SS Close as your start time. If you start between SS Open and SS Close, you get your actual time.

I think this is the least disruptive. SS Close does not have any meaning in Race to Goal tasks, nor in Open Distance tasks.

I'll plan for it in one of the next releases, in time for the HG worlds.

comment:16 Changed 4 years ago by joerg

  • Status changed from new to assigned

comment:17 Changed 4 years ago by joerg

  • Milestone 1.3.x deleted

Milestone 1.3.x deleted

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